My weekend blog post routine includes posting links to a handful of tools or great content I ran across during the week.
I don’t go into depth about the finds, but I encourage you to check them out if they sound interesting. The photo in the post is a favorite for the week from an online source or one I took on the road.
Tona – Do you want to know if a competitor is changing their landing page or pricing? With tona, you can be aware of your competitor’s movements. Every time they make any change you will receive a notification with a screenshot to keep you on the loop.
AISEO – If writing it’s not your favorite thing in the world, don’t worry, we’ve got you covered. With AISEO you can produce content aligned with Google’s standards, increasing the potential for achieving favorable search rankings.
Midjourney – Is an independent research lab exploring new mediums of thought and expanding the imaginative powers of the human species to generate images through AI. There is a little bit of a learning curve, but if you can get it right this tool has so much potential from AI generated images to education tools and other AI innovations.
These are my weekend favs; I would love to hear about some of yours – Tweet me @ducttape
If you want to check out more Weekend Favs you can find them here.
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What do five of today’s leading B2B marketers love about marketing and this year’s big MarketingProfs B2B Forum 2023 event taking place October 4 – 6 in Boston and online?
Our founder Lee Odden took the opportunity to ask these questions and many others to five exceptional B2B marketers who will be speaking during #MPB2B next week, which we’ve gathered together here in our “Feeling B2B” video interview series.
Join Lee as he explores it all with guests Joe Pulizzi, founder of Content Marketing Institute and The Tilt, Pam Didner, vice president at Relentless Pursuit, Ahava Leibtag, president at Aha Media Group, Wil Reynolds, vice president of innovation at Seer Interactive, and the one and only Ann Handley, chief content officer at MarketingProfs.
“Feeling B2B” is created by TopRank Marketing in partnership with MarketingProfs B2B Forum, which is slated to feature these five along with more than 150 of the brightest minds in the B2B marketing industry.
In the first of our Feeling B2B interviews, Joe explores what he loves the most about B2B marketing, the connections between live events and content, the top B2B marketing lessons he’s learned during his career, and offers up a preview of his #MPB2B presentation on unconventional approaches to content marketing.
“If we did marketing correctly, if we published the right content to the right person and focused on their needs and pain points, we could truly make a difference in their lives.” — Joe Pulizzi @JoePulizzi Click To Tweet
Watch Pam as she shares with Lee her insight on the importance of emotions and finding joy in B2B marketing, her longtime involvement with #MPB2B, the power of unity in the B2B marketing community, and what she loves about B2B marketing.
“Can you find joy in B2B marketing and find joy in what you do? I think that’s a very important emotion and experience when you do your job.” — Pam Didner @PamDidner Click To Tweet
In the third episode of our Feeling B2B video interview series Ahava looks at finding joy in B2B marketing, the nuances that separate B2C from B2B content experiences, the power of using plain language, what she’s looking forward to the most at this year’s #MPB2B event, and much more.
“To me, B2B is a little more layered — it’s a little more nuanced. Also quite frankly, sometimes from a content perspective I find it more challenging.” — Ahava Leibtag @ahaval Click To Tweet
Watch Wil as he shares his insight on the importance of nurturing, perseverance, and embracing complexity, the parallels between running and marketing, what he loves about B2B marketing, and plenty more.
“What I love about B2B is it makes you have to stretch more as a marketer, to say, 'How might I be able to answer your questions?'.” — Wil Reynolds @WilReynolds Click To Tweet
The finale of “Feeling B2B” comes from Ann, who shares her delightful takes on this year’s big #MPB2B event, the integration of generative AI in content creation and her journey through building a relationship with this new tool, what she loves about B2B marketing, and much more.
“I think the evolution of B2B marketing — the way that it constantly challenges us as B2B marketers — is one of the things that truly keeps me engaged and energized.” — Ann Handley @MarketingProfs Click To Tweet
We hope you’ve found plenty of helpful take-aways from our “Feeling B2B” video interview series, and thank Joe, Pam, Ahava, Wil, and Ann for taking the time to share so many insights with us.
In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Jeremy Kenerson. Jeremy’s journey in internet marketing began in 2009 when he assumed leadership of the sales team at Infusionsoft (now Keap). In 2013, he founded his own digital agency, specializing in the complete customer lifecycle.
Over the last decade, Jeremy mastered the art of outsourcing, investing over $1 million in overseas teams, making him a true authority in remote team delegation. He has revolutionized outsourcing with his “Insourcing” methodology, as the founder of DeskTeam360 – a long time partner of the Duct Tape Marketing Agency Network.
Key Takeaway:
During this podcast, we discussed the importance of effective outsourcing and insourcing in marketing, emphasizing the value of communication and collaboration with remote teams to achieve successful outcomes. Additionally, we highlight the significance of strategic partnerships in expanding one’s marketing reach without forgetting the need for quality, consistency, and professional expertise while outsourcing.
Questions I ask
{01:00} How do you define insourcing?
{01:50} What kind of issues have you encountered, in trying to get to where you are today?
{02:43} What do you say to folks that want to start outsourcing but think they won’t be able to accomplish it?
{06:26} Please, provide us with an overview of Desk360, your company
{10:46} What has been your best method of generating leads in new business for your own organization?
{13:18} Where do you see the future of insourcing going?
John (00:09): Hello and welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Janstch. My guest today is Jeremy Kenerson. His journey in internet marketing began in 2009 when he assumed leadership of the sales team at Infusionsoft, better, now known now as Keap. In 2013, he found his own digital agency specializing in the complete customer lifecycle, and over the last decade, he has mastered the art of outsourcing, investing over 1 million in overseas teams, making him a true authority and remote team delegation. He's revolutionized outsourcing with his insourcing methodology as the founder of Desk Team 360 and is a longtime partner of Duct Tape Marketing and the Duct Tape Marketing Agency Network. So Jeremy, welcome to the show.
Jeremy (00:58): Thank you, John. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
John (01:00): Let's start with that first term. How do you define insourcing? That's a term you I think are spending some time trying to give some space around. So in a nutshell, what is insourcing?
Jeremy (01:11): Yeah, as quickly as possible. So outsourcing is your sourcing folks that are outside of your office. They could be in the United States, they could be overseas, whatever you're outsourcing and insourcing is where we bring everybody overseas into an actual office. And we found that, well, we found when I ran my own digital agency and I was outsourcing, I came across all the same excuses and frustrations everybody else has dealt with. The work didn't get done because of this, that and the other thing. And I eliminated all of that by bringing everybody into an office. We control all the internet providers, the electricity, the computers, and having managers, so bringing everybody in house,
John (01:50): So kind of one direct cable to the in-sourced office. So you set out, I think in, I don't know if this was the original plan, but right now what you're trying to do with Desk Team 360 is to change the industry a little bit. What kind of issues have you encountered in trying to get to where you are today?
Jeremy (02:09): I think the biggest thing, just going back to the beginning, it was funny. I met somebody that was at Infusionsoft years ago. His name was Brett, and he said, Hey, how's it going? I was like, oh, great. He is like, what have you been up to since you left in Infusionsoft? And I started telling him all these things and he's like, ah, you had the entrepreneurial, I'm like, what's that? He's like, you just went after every single idea you possibly could that you thought would make you money. And so that was the first hurdle to overcome was actually closing down all these smaller businesses that were making a little bit amounts of money here and there. So being able to focus, I think was the first hurdle we overcame.
John (02:43): Yeah, I'd say a lot of listeners probably share that part of their journey if hopefully they've figured it out. Our model in the agency world is really a lot of outsourcing or a lot of delegation of work rather than the business or certainly the owner of the business doing the actual work of fulfillment. But a heck of a lot of people I talk to have said, yeah, I've tried to do this and put this thing together and that thing together and it's more work than it's worth. I mean, what do you say to folks that kind of talk about outsourcing is just not being able to do
Jeremy (03:16): It? Yeah, I find a lot of people deal with that same issue and it comes down to outsourcing. And not just outsourcing, I'd say delegation. It doesn't matter where they are. If you're delegating something that's a skillset that you need, not just in business, but as a parent in life, I need to delegate these things. And a lot of times people jump into it, they jump into a lot of things that it's just going to be sunshine and rainbows. It's going to be super easy. I need to get this thing off my plate so I have more time to do this. And we get so impatient as entrepreneurs that we look at those things and go, oh, it wasn't worth it. It didn't work out. Something happened when in reality, if we take the time to actually learn this skillset, it'll save us so much time in the long run. But you have that awkward phase when you hire anybody, whether it's hiring an in-house employee, they're in an awkward phase of one to two months before they're able to actually take time off your plate because before then they're coming to you asking you all these questions and everything. And the same thing with outsourcing overseas. It's not something that's just going to happen right away. You have to learn how to communicate and work with people outside of the office and key. That's what I teach my clients when they first come on board.
John (04:24): I mean, if I had a whiteboard here, we could draw this little graph that would show kind of like, because I do think a lot of people think that it is like, oh yeah, I'm hiring this people that's off my plate now. And it's really actually more on your plate than it ever was because now you have to actually document it and get what's in your head out of your head so somebody else can do it. So I think people underestimate that there's kind of a period of more work as opposed to fantasy land isn't there? Yeah,
Jeremy (04:51): That's a good way to say it. Fantasy land, because that's what it is. It's a fantasy to think that you could just hire a person, give them all these things as if they've worked with you for the last five years and know what's in your head and know how you like things done. It's just not realistic. So whether you're doing an in-house or outsourcing, it's the same thing. You just got to take the time. And I like what you said, it's like getting the ideas out of your head and creating an actual s o p so that next time you hire someone, it doesn't become a pain in the rear. You're able to use that to help the onboarding process a lot
John (05:21): Faster. Yeah, and I'm sure you have a lot to say about this as well, but I've certainly found one of the pitfalls is lack of communication that it's like, oh yeah, I'll use one of the things you do for a lot of your clients. I need a website and think, okay, that's going to get a website built. And so we've found actually you can't over-communicate enough in several formats, and especially if you know what you want, getting that communicated takes some time, doesn't it?
Jeremy (05:51): Oh, it does. And that's what I spend a lot of my time working with my clients, training them how to communicate the requests site's a little bit bigger. That definitely isn't something that you just send to an email and say, Hey, I want a website, and then it's done. So what I always tell our clients is schedule a call with your account manager when you have a bigger project, like a website project. Let the US based account manager know the 30,000 foot view of the project so they can help quarterback that project as it's getting done. I think that really helps a lot with those type of bigger projects, having that US base account manager to talk to and outline the project.
John (06:26): So we've mentioned Desk Team 360 a number of times. It's probably a good point in the show to say what Desk Team 360 is and does, I mean, I think people have probably figured out you provide some outsourced services, but let's kind of give an overview.
Jeremy (06:40): Sure. Over the years, I kind of call it outsourced marketing implementation. So we work a lot with your clients and different agencies, a lot of different entrepreneurs, but really no matter what business you're running, whether you're doing marketing for another company as a consultant or an agency or an entrepreneur doing your own marketing, there's a lot of things that take place. First is the strategy, and you got to know what your strategy is, and then you need to be able to write that content for that strategy. So if you've got a marketing funnel, well, you need the sales copy, the sales page copy, you need the thank you page copy, you need the email copy. If you handle the strategy and the email and all the content writing, our clients will send us over projects, and then we'd get all the graphic design, all the tech set up. So creating the landing pages and ClickFunnels, connecting it to your website, connecting it to the emails and your C R M and using Zapier and getting everything integrated and tested and working. We handle all of the graphic design and all the tech work.
John (07:38): And I think that's a great point to go a little deeper in because I think a lot of times people underestimate, we use the example of a webpage or a landing page or a website that to actually make that function as a marketing tool, there's probably some other integrations that have to happen into your C R M so that you can create follow-up sequences. So over and above design, you're actually hooking all those parts together for people too, aren't you?
Jeremy (08:04): Correct, yeah. All the finer details. I'd say if there's a software that you use for your marketing, then give us the login and we can get it working for
John (08:13): You. So I'm sure there are other people that do this, but you have a particular financial model as well, a subscription based model you want kind of as well?
Jeremy (08:21): Yeah, sure. So right now we have three different packages. One is unlimited graphic design. The next one is just the tech, so just handling the logins and the emails, the websites and all that stuff. And then there's the pro, which is the combination of both. You got unlimited graphic design and unlimited tech help all for one low monthly fee of 9 97 a
John (08:41): Month. Well, I'll tell you selfishly, we use Desk Team 360 before our clients, but we promote it to all the consultants in our network to use for their clients as well, because having that fixed, or at least an idea of that fixed a lot of times one-off things come up or you need to redesign something here. And so you really can predict your costs that you're going to have. And I know that's one of the things we really love. I'll tell you the other thing for agencies, even if you don't have, we have a lot of folks that are getting started, maybe have two or three clients, a subscription feels scary to 'em. They're not working on their own websites. And so actually having somebody there to be able to go, oh, let's get these four pages done that we've been talking about for six months. I tell you that I tell people that and they're like, oh yeah, I guess I could use it for that.
Jeremy (09:30): Yeah, a lot of people will have their own website as a low priority task that when no priority, they're submitting stuff to us, we're able to get to work on that.
John (09:38): Yeah, exactly. Yeah. No, that's great. Talk about some of the results that you've seen or maybe some of your favorite projects or anything that you've worked with somebody.
Jeremy (09:47): Yeah, so I mean people are just saving tons of time. Some people are saving 20 hours a week, 30 hours a week, 40 hours a week, just a ton. One of our clients is an agency and he's been with us for about four years, and he started off just like you guys did. It was like, oh, let me test you guys out with one. Okay, cool. You guys work great. This is awesome. I love working with you. Let's up it to three. And then he just kept increasing and growing his agency to where now he's up to about 20 tasks at a time. So he actually has his own dedicated teams with us now, and it's just really cool to see someone go from just starting off with their agency and being able to grow. Because when I did my agency, I don't do my agency anymore. Why? Because it evolved. But if I knew then what I know now, I probably would still have my agency because I started off hiring all in-house people and it's just super expensive. I got to the point where as we were making more money as the business owner was making less money, and that's not a good business model to be in. So outsourcing helps a lot.
John (10:46): Sorry to chuckle, but I've heard that exact statement before. So let's talk a little bit about the business itself. What has been your best method of say, generating leads and new business for your own organization?
Jeremy (11:01): So this is something where a few years ago I went to an event and when you go to an event and you hear the same thing over and over again, but every once in a while you hear something and you're like, I do that. Why didn't I do that? I wasn't doing it. And it was just talking about joint venture partnerships. So especially with dealing with agencies, there's people, like right now I have a relationship with someone in the esthetician business, so she has a huge following and she's now using us and has used us and now is referring us, and now she's promoting Destin 360 to her list. But same thing with agencies. You can connect with somebody that has a big influence in a particular niche. And I hear a lot of people, they're scared to niche down because they feel like they are committed to that for the rest of their life.
(11:48): They can't take on any other clients unless they're in that niche. And I tell people, no, you can still service other people, but your marketing campaign is geared towards that one niche, but then get another niche and then get another niche. And if you can continue to build relationships like that, that has helped desk team faster, grow faster than anything else besides that, as Facebook ads have become more expensive, we went into the realm of cold outreach, so I'm still doing a lot of the traditional stuff, but just playing with as many things as possible. But that joint venture partnership really got the needle moving the most.
John (12:25): Hey, have you ever tried to hire freelancers and found that the quality of work was lacking or you got all the outsourcing excuses as to why the work didn't get done on time? Well, desk Team 360 has revolutionized the outsourcing game with their insourcing program that eliminates all those frustrations and excuses. You get unlimited graphic designs, website funnels, C R M, email automation integrations, automations, really anything that requires you to log into software. Imagine all the time and frustrations you can save from trying to get your tech work done properly. We use Desk Team 360 every day in our business, and so I've negotiated you a 10% deal. That's right. Just go to a desk, team 360 info, book a discovery call, and you'll receive the special duct tape marketing 10% off because hey, your pal John always takes care of you. So that's it.
(13:18): Go to desk team three sixty.info and book your call today. I get asked this question all the time. Somebody's either just getting started or they want that one thing. What's one thing I could do that would really make a difference? I always point 'em to that. Strategic partners are really a great way to go. I mean, they may have prospects they could introduce you to where a client might have two or three referrals they could give you. So it's really the best bang for your buck. Sometimes it takes a while to get going. It's not an overnight thing, but great bang for your buck. So we have gone, let me look, 13 minutes and 58 seconds. I'm going to mention AI for the first time. How is AI impacting the design business as you see it? I know there's a lot of hype and there's a lot of misinformation about the ways people are using, but certainly it's here at a point and then maybe it's a follow-up question to that is where do you think it's going?
Jeremy (14:15): Yeah, so right now with design, I have not had a lot of luck getting the heat, the AI to create a good design. I've tasked my team to play with it and just not a lot of good results. It is similar to kind of like chat G P T when that first came out, everybody was like, shouldn't say everybody, but a lot of people were like, oh, this is garbage. And it's like, yeah, well, if you put in one question and you get back your answer, how about you drill that question down five different times or 10 different times and you can get some pretty good content that way, but I just have not able to nail it down with the actual design functionality because it just gives a lot of weird images.
John (14:59): Well, so moving away from Dolly and things that are creating images, I'm seeing some services cropping up that are you put in your business where it's located the industry and you push a button and it's going to pull in stock photos and things and design a website or at least design a homepage. We can debate whether or not that that is valuable at all, but how are you fighting that sort of, oh, it's free almost to do this kind of stuff. I mean, when somebody comes to you and says, oh, it's going to be X amount a month for me to have web design versus getting the stuff that they say is free, what do you tell somebody that might have that argument in their mind?
Jeremy (15:41): You get what you pay for. I mean, I remember when Wix first, not Wix, what was the We Bleed, do you remember? We leave that website design. It was like, oh, you could set one up for free. And then I was like, cool, I'm going to set one up for my dad. And at the time I had no experience with setting up websites, but I set one up for my dad and it looked absolutely terrible, not a designer. So I sure I could try to get it done. Same thing with the ai, and same thing with the graphics, same thing with the website. It's like you get it done and you look at it and you go, is this what I want my brand to look like? And there's just something to be said when you have a human being researching and looking into your business and creating designs, creating multiple designs, and then being able to do revisions and go back to get it honed into something you love compared to trying to get something for free and spending a lot of time, a lot of your time and a lot of your energy to create something you're not happy with anyway.
(16:34): Where a lot of people that try those things, by the time they come to us, they've already tried Weebly and Wix and they tried to create a blog on WordPress, but it just ends up being the same result. They're like, I'd just rather pay somebody at this point, but they've wasted three months in the process trying to, yeah,
John (16:49): I think certainly a lot of business owners don't give enough, I don't think, give enough value to the impact of design, of good design of consistent design of design that at least to the viewer represents what they think that it should feel like, right? We've all gone to a website of an industry that construction or something and it was a templated thing, and you're kind of like, is that really what I want? Or I expect a construction site to look like? Probably not. And so I think that's obviously the value of having at least one team work on your things. You really get that consistency or at least have the ability. Do you ever find, I kind of already talked about this idea of over-communicating, we're pretty opinionated about what we think a website should do and function and not as much about what it should look like, but certainly what should be there, what the journey should look like. Do you ever feel like people like me would run the risk of overcom commuting to the point where you're just trying to give me what I want as opposed to, Hey, here's actually a creative design that we think would serve you better?
Jeremy (17:56): Yeah, I think that there's no way you can over communicate. There's just no way, and the team's not going to get annoyed by it. I hear that a lot from people. They're like, Hey, I don't mean to bug you, but can you please like dude, you're not bugging us. Please. The more information the better. And because we don't, with us, there's no consequence of doing unlimited revisions. So yeah, give your feedback, give your feedback, refine it until it's something that you fall in love with. And for you guys, it's a little bit different because you're creating the websites for your clients. So instead of being in love with it, you look at it and go, is this good enough to come from us to our client?
John (18:34): Yeah, great point. I love to ask entrepreneurs this. What's like on the horizon for you? Any new areas or you just really want to keep Oring this boat in the straight direction?
Jeremy (18:45): Yeah, so for the immediate future, yes, we're directing it. We're trying to keep it as simple as possible and what our offerings are down the pipe in the future. In the near future, I already have this in beta, is offering like a legit US-based project manager because some of our clients that are a little bit larger, you guys have your own in-house people that are managing all your tickets and everything, but there's a lot of entrepreneurs that are managing a lot of tickets. They don't have the infrastructure to go, Hey Billy, this is on your plate now. You take care of this forever. So being able to offer that account or that project manager role where you can meet with somebody weekly or even daily to go through what it is that you need done, what your tasks are and have them organize it and have them communicate with the team, I think will be pretty big for some of our larger clients where they don't have to, because another position, another hat that they have to wear is managing all the tickets and everything.
(19:42): So that's more in the immediate future. And then I'm also looking at adding on different services in regards to marketing and also I just forgot that I swear John, ever since I hit 40, things just pop right out of my brain and I'm like, where'd it go? It was right there. Some other services in regards to actual marketing. So being able to do more things with s e o, doing more things with social media, doing more things with cold outreach and having that as part of an offering, especially as we are entering into these different niches. Then being able to set up for estheticians like local SSS e o, like great, we can systematize that template that and push that out to all those clients. We have different clients like you that are niched into something. So being able to systematize that and even white label the services so that our clients can make money off of our services at the same time has been pretty helpful.
John (20:32): Awesome. Well, Jeremy, I appreciate you taking a moment to stop by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. If you want to invite people to obviously connect with you, but then I'll find out more about Dust Team 360 and the various ways you might be able to help.
Jeremy (20:44): Yeah, if you go to 360 dot, that'll actually take you to a Duct Tape marketing page of ours where you can get a 10% discount and you can check out all of our case studies and see how everybody's using it and how and why they love it.
John (20:57): Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate you stopping by and hopefully we'll run into you out there on the road. In fact, I know I'm going to run into you out there on the road pretty soon in Salt Lake City. Yeah,
Jeremy (21:07): Yeah, I'll see you next month.
John (21:09): Alright, thanks Chairman.
Jeremy (21:10): Thanks John. Take care.
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In this episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast, I interviewed Steve Woodruff, whom has spent the past thirty-seven years in the front lines of sales, marketing, consulting, and entrepreneurship, which has uniquely equipped him to guide others in the principles and practices of clear and effective communication.
Steve is the also author of the business book Clarity Wins, and his new book The Point: How to Win with Clarity-Fueled Communications; coming out in October 2023.
His latest book unveils how the overloaded human brain wants information packaged, and how to craft brain-friendly messages that break through the noise. From email to sales pitches, from workshops to resumes, Steve Woodruff’s Clarity Fuel Formula is the universal recipe for communications success.
Key Takeaway:
In this podcast episode, Steve Woodruff, known as the King of Clarity, discusses the importance of clear and effective communication. He shares valuable insights into the principles of clarity-fueled communication, emphasizing the need to have a clear point, get to the point, get the point across, and get on the same page. By simplifying messages and using vivid language, communicators can engage their audience’s brains and create memorable experiences. Steve’s new book, “The Point: How to Win with Clarity-Fueled Communication,” provides further guidance on mastering this essential skill.
Questions I ask Steve Woodruff
[00:52] How would how would you define clarity fueled community communication?
[01:35] Is it harder to write with clarity and simplicity?
[02:39] Would you agree there’s some science in naming things?
[05:01] Talk to us more about the four rules your framework is based on?
[08:25] What’s the length necessary for writing?
[11:12] How do we make sure that everybody across the board is using consistent language in their writing?
[13:46] Can you elaborate more on your definition of focus?
John (00:10): Hello, welcome to another episode of the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. This is John Janstch. My guest today is Steve Woodruff. He is known as the King of Clarity. 37 years in the frontline of sales, marketing, consulting, and entrepreneurship has equipped Steve to guide others in the principles and practices of clear and effective communication. Long time listeners will remember that Steve also wrote a book called Clarity Wins, and we're going to talk about his new book today, the Point How to Win with Clarity Fueled Communication, which is available probably by the time you listen to this October of 2023 and beyond. So Steve, welcome back to the show.
Steve (00:50): Always a pleasure to talk to you, John. Well,
John (00:52): Let's start by with a definition how when somebody says, huh, clarity fueled communication, what the heck is that? How would you define that?
Steve (01:01): That's very interesting. I had been using the term clarity as my sort of key word for many years, and I realized a couple months ago if I ever actually defined this thing, really defined it. And so I wrote a blog post defining what I mean by clarity. But essentially what I'm talking about is communicating in a way that is so simple and easy for the brain to process that instead of pushing people away and shutting their brains down, you're turning the light on. And that means using vivid, memorable brief words.
John (01:35): So the key word probably in there for me is simplicity, but that does not imply like dumbing it down. I mean, in some ways it's kind the obvious, right? It's actually harder to write with clarity and simplicity sometimes, isn't it
Steve (01:47): Much, much harder. In fact, the big default that I'm up against is t m i. Too much information and we are all tempted to try to say too much. And it's really a matter of brain science that has convinced me why that is bad. I mean, I think we instinctively know it's bad, but the fact is that the human brain is processing 7 million bits of information per second from all five senses, and that when you and I are talking to one another, John, it's 60 bits of focus. We can only focus on 60 bits. And what that means is if we're going to win in communication, we've got to win the 60 bit battle against 11 million bits of competitors. How do we do? Well, we've got to be clear, simple, and get right to the point.
John (02:39): So I don't want to ruin any of your tools and exercises that we are going to talk about, but I have noticed over the years, what's worked very, very effectively for me is to name things, give things a simple name that somebody can at least go, oh, I think I know what that means, or I want to know what that means. And I'm guessing that there's something science-based to that, just that tactic isn't there?
Steve (03:04): Yeah, there is. It's funny, I call it a memory dart, and a memory dart is a memory dart. So it's a way of phrasing something that is suggestive and has a hook in somebody's mind. So when I tell people I don't like the term elevator pitch for two reasons. Number one, nobody likes to talk in the elevator. And number two, nobody likes to be pitched. I talk about replacing that with a memory dart, a way of taking your compressed message and sticking it in people's minds. And when you can call something as you did with duct tape marketing, that's vivid, you have a much better chance of sticking than if you keep it generic and technical.
John (03:45): Yeah, and there have been times over the years where I've tried to explain to somebody all the things that something did or even all the benefits of it, and it's almost overwhelming, whereas if you say No, it's like this for this, it seems like all of a sudden they can process it.
Steve (04:01): Yes, I am a big believer in symbolic language and in side-by-sides, and those are two of the tactics I talk about of brain-friendly shortcuts. When we use side-by-side, we're saying, here's something you know about, well, this is like, or not like. That's a shortcut to processing and to recognition. And symbolic language is also incredibly important. So if I say, well, John Jan is the Mercedes of marketers, I've encapsulated in one symbolic word a ton of information, and it's memorable and it's suggestive, and it's so much better than saying, here are 45 bullet points about John, and nobody's going to remember 45 bullet points.
John (04:46): If you don't mind, Steve, I'd rather be the mini Cooper of marketing. It's
Steve (04:50): Fine. That's okay. I called my editor Josh Bernoff, I called him the Mercedes of business editors, and he said, I'd rather be the Tesla. I said, fine, whatever floats your boat, man.
John (05:01): Josh was on a recent show. He has a new book ad that puts out some of his teachings on riding. So your framework has four rules. And so maybe let's go there because I really do think that's the basis of at least getting people to start to wrap their head around, how do I do this clarity thing,
Steve (05:20): Right? Well, the first thing that I lead with typically, because everybody understands the need, is you have to get to the point. And we have all experienced the frustration of listening to someone who can't get to the point. Getting to the point means we've got to get to the relevant, interesting thing right away. But that's actually rule number two. Rule number one is you have to have a point probably, oh, whoops. So many meetings, presentations, discussions. You don't know if the person actually knows what they're talking about, why they're even bringing this up. So you have to have a clear purpose and destination. You can articulate yourself in a very short, I figure if you can't define your point in one sentence, you need to do some work before you start communicating. Because unless you know the point, you can't get to the point. So you got to have a point, which is the shift that you're seeking to create in your audience's mind. You've got to get to the point. The third thing is you have to get the point across, which means that even if we're using the same language and using words that we both know somehow know these words, we might not define them the same way. So if I use the term marketing, I'm going to have a whole bunch of meanings strategies.
John (06:40): That's my favorite.
Steve (06:41): Oh, strategy is another beauty. There will be a whole list of meanings, thoughts, definitions, ideas and experiences. And you and I can use these words back and forth and not really in our, so we've got to make sure we simplify and define and illustrate. That's getting the point across. And then the goal, especially in business, is we want to get on the same page. So we're trying to reach alignment and agreement and action and summarize that in writing. So if you look at that sequence, have a point, get to the point, point across and get on the same page, that's essentially the recipe for every form of communication. You can use that for emails, presentations, books, podcasts, everything has those four rules and it respects the way the human brain wants information.
John (07:34): So would you say, obviously the best part would be to have those four rules in mind as you're starting to write a draft, maybe even. But would you say that you could also go back and take any piece of content that's been written and say, does it have a point? Did it get to the point? Yeah, I mean it kind of almost do that same sort of filtering.
Steve (07:51): That's one of the fun exercises I do in my workshops with my corporate clients is we'll take a block of stuff, texts, ideas, whatever, and say, alright, let's dig into this and find the point. How would you actually bring out the point? Because if we present unstructured information to people, if we give them the haystack and not the needle, we're going to shut them down. So we've got to say, here's the needle, here's what we're talking about. Now we can progress to a greater level of detail once we know what we're talking about.
John (08:25): So let's talk about length, because I'm guessing that the default or maybe the assumption in somebody writing is, oh, that means my writing needs to be very short. But that's not exactly what you're saying, is it?
Steve (08:38): No, there's some level of detail that's necessary. So what am my most important strategies in the book is what I call stratification. If you have a block of information, and if you envision a pyramid with three levels at the very top of the pyramid is the distilled the point, the most important thing we're shooting for here, you got to start with that. And then once people know the point, they will be receptive to hearing a little bit more, some background or some context or some stories. Then they'll be receptive to details as much as they need. So it's not that we're throwing all the information out, but we have to sequence it in a way that makes it palatable. So if you go to a restaurant and you order five courses and they just bring out everything at once, the dessert, the wine, the appetizer, the soup, all great food, I wanted it, but this is not the sequence I was looking for.
John (09:36): Well, in some ways that's the classic sort of copywriting is spend 80% of your time on the headline. And I mean, in some ways it's like that's the ad for whether or not you should invest your time to go any farther, because there've been times I've read, I don't know, 3000 word emails or sales pages because I said, this is worth me investing my time in. There's also been times when I've gone, so in a lot of ways that's what you're saying is the point may not necessarily be the hook per se, but it's the thing that's going to bring me in is it,
Steve (10:09): It's the thing that appeals to you on the level of personal relevance. It's the what's in it for me as an audience, the W I I F M. So salespeople know about the W I I F M because you've got to talk about the benefit. Well, in fact, for every communication with every person, we have to lead with the W I I F M, the what's in it for you. So email, John is one of the areas where I encourage the most immediate change, which is the visual real estate of the subject line in the first sentence is where you're going to win or lose on emails in an inbox that's full of stuff and always growing and the person that's receiving email is going to skimm, delete, put off, maybe read. Well, if I don't get the point right up there in the subject line, the first sentence, I run the risk of never being seen. And so that's where you've got to say, here's the call to action. Here's the deadline, here's what I'm looking for. And then the details can be later, but you got to hook 'em first.
John (11:12): Yeah, and it's funny in email because in a lot of email programs, of course that first sentence is, I can see half of that before you even open the email. So you might, you might be talking about a couple hundred characters, you better hook them because they're going to decide to not even open it. Let's talk about consistency. A lot of organizations, everybody in the organization's creating content today, right? Because what we do, how do we make sure that we are all, once clarity is found, how do we make sure that everybody across the board is using that consistent language, how people are, I mean, they just, here's my style, but from a brand promise standpoint, once we find that message, boy, sticking with it is important. Hey, you ever tried to hire freelancers and found that the quality of work was lacking? Or you got all the outsourcing excuses as to why the work didn't get done on time?
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Steve (12:53): That's one of my biggest burdens with this book is that I've worked with a lot of corporate clients and they all have a set of all these different formulas. Here's our selling formula, here's our marketing formula, here's our blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, 15 different acronyms, recipes, whatever, no consistency. And that means that there is no clear communication consistency in the organization because it's all fragmented. So in coming up with this formula that's in the book, I wanted to see if there could be one formula that fit everybody, every human being in an organization. And so the four rules and the eight tools are completely universal, and they provide the framework of a language that a team or an entire organization can standardize on so that people can reinforce best practices instead of all be fragmented with their own thing.
John (13:46): So there's a point in the book, and I think this is a point you're making, correct me if I'm wrong, I think that a lot of people will get to the point where their clear messaging is helping the organization focus. However, I think you took the leap to say, really that's our job is to actually help the reader focus. Now, did I misinterpret that? But I really love that point, and I hope that's the point you were making.
Steve (14:08): Sounds like a good one follow up book
John (14:10): If not addition to, right?
Steve (14:12): That's right. No, the idea of focus is for everyone in the organization and especially leaders, leaders in an organization have got to have clear focus and put it into clear words so that their people can have clear expectations of what they're to do. And this is one of the big gaps I find as far as clarity is you might have somebody that could make a good sales message or make a good marketing message, but they're not clear in the way that they discuss things with the people they're coaching or managing and leading. And so you want clarity to percolate through everything, whatever you write, whatever, say every meeting you have. And that means it's an ongoing pursuit. It's not a one and done deal. I'm still struggling with it every single day.
John (15:00): I want to push a little bit on that because then you may have not have said this directly, but I got this from the, I think great communication actually helps the reader focus because in marketing, a lot of times the most effective marketing helps a reader understand the problem they couldn't articulate or the symptom of what's wrong in their business that they couldn't put a name to. And that's where I went with focus, because I think that the best writing actually does that for the reader.
Steve (15:29): Yeah, the best writing is going to create mental pictures in the reader's mind and give them, as you said, the labels that they've been looking for, maybe they didn't even know they didn't have. And so when you have good creative vivid language that somebody reads and the light bulb goes on, oh, that's what I'm looking for, that's what I'm needing. Oh man, it's wonderful. And so what I often do is I say, look, there's two levels of writing. One is the technically accurate explanation and you want to start there, then you got to have the really cool way of saying it that's going to turn the light on and be memorable. You can't just leave it at technically accurate. You've got to be able to say it in a way that the human brain loves. And that's the eight shortcuts that I talk about in the book that I'll start with SS stories, snippets, statements, side-by-side, symbolic language. That's what all that is meant to do, is to give that aha to the reader.
John (16:28): So step one, really define it as you say, as you call it technically accurate, but certainly don't stop there. I mean, that's half the job. And when somebody's come in to say, okay, how's this going to work for me? At that point, they need the technically accurate definition, but before they're even going to, I was going to say waste of time, spend the time to find out. It's got to have the cool thing.
Steve (16:51): Yeah, it's got to be appealing and simple, and we underestimate the power of simplicity, but I don't care how smart somebody is, I don't care how many degrees they have, simple language works, brevity works, vividness works. And that's how if we're going to be great marketers and great authors and great consultants, that's how we've got a front load with interesting, relevant stuff. If people are going to engage. Otherwise, there's too many options. I mean, every one of us has a smartphone, and if you're presenting and in the first minute or two, you're not getting to the point, it doesn't matter how valuable your stuff is, you're done. Everybody's going to be tuned out.
John (17:34): And I read a lot of fiction as well as nonfiction and fiction writers I think are a good fiction writer, very good at dragging you in. And you're going, I want to know. It's almost like the narrative makes you want to know what, so now you'll slog through the 200 pages of character development because they drug you in. I want to push back on one idea. I mean, I'm 100% agree with you, but I just want to hear, I know where some people might lead, and I'm going to use an example that you used in yours. I think there's, you can run the risk of oversimplifying, I believe. And you used the idea of the Hippocratic Oath in the book, and that's a brilliant example of where people have not only oversimplified, they've butchered it. First do no harm is what everybody says, but the actual document says, I will abstain from all intentional wrongdoing and harm, which is much different than first do no harm.
(18:29): If a doctor first did no harm, they wouldn't cut you open to save your heart. And I think that the point I'm making here is that I think it's abstained, abstained from all intended wrongdoing and harm is a very different meaning than what sort of the simplification over the years has turned that idea in. And we all use it. Everybody's used it, I mean uses that, but it's technically not accurate. So maybe I've butchered this example of what I was trying to get to, but I think sometimes in a rush to be cute, almost sometimes we can actually really send the wrong message or oversimplify so badly that people don't really have the right expectations.
Steve (19:13): Well, I think in the example there, my point in the book was don't overwhelm the human brain. Yeah.
(19:21): Here's what you just don't want to do In any instance, you do not want to overwhelm the brain because that is going to defeat the purpose. That is not what you're to do as a communicator. What you're trying to do is turn the light on, not turn it off. So the verbal shorthand of the Hippocratic Oath, yeah, I mean there's some work that could be done there, but it's a familiar term and it's a side by side that people can relate to. But the point of the thing is that we can't commit malpractice as communicators by just defeating the purpose of, if I've got this person on the table when I've got a scalp and I say, let's just cut 'em open and bleed 'em all out and see what happens, well that's really not so good, whether I intended it or not.
John (20:11): And the overcomplicated thing too, I mean, I've done it over the years and every 100% of the time, if I send out something and say, Hey, I've got three options for you. You can do this or this or this, nothing. But if I send out something that says, here's what you must do and why, way better response. Even though I think, well, gosh, I'm giving them options. They can pick good, better, best, but it's like now they can't pick as
Steve (20:35): It's complicated. There's some science behind that. The more options people have, the more they delay, the harder it is to make a decision. I've made major changes in the last three years to the way I email. I used to have emails that were more comprehensive, maybe have multiple themes, and I realized nobody wants to respond to that. So I typically make every single email one theme only with maybe one call to action. And it's like, you can do something right now with this. It's way, way better.
John (21:07): Yeah. I know my most effective emails over the year are me just saying, here's something that happened to me the other day and I'm wondering what you think about and just get into this story. And people are like, huh, I felt like I was talking to you as opposed to the whole, this here's new idea of the week. So Steve, I appreciate you shopping by the Duct Tape Marketing Podcast. You want to tell people where they can pick up a copy of the point or connect with you in any way that you think makes sense.
Steve (21:33): Sure. So I can be found, I do a lot of my work on LinkedIn, and that's where I share a lot of information, write a lot of posts, have a newsletter. So if you looked at LinkedIn and do Steve Woodruff for King of Clarity, or either both, you'll find me, I'm also@stevewoodruff.com. That website's in the middle of a rebrand and refresh, but by the time this reaches the audience, it should be done and then the books can be seen on Amazon. The point is there due out October 17th, but it can be pre-ordered before that Clarity wins is there on Amazon. Clarity Wins was self-published on the Amazon platform, so it's only available there. The point is through Morgan James publisher, so it's going to be in bookstores. It's at Barnes and Noble. It'll be at other online ventures as well.
John (22:15): Awesome. Well, again, I appreciate you taking the time to stop by and hopefully we'll see you again one these days out there on the road, Steve.
Steve (22:22): Sounds good, John. Thanks.
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Later this month, marketers from all around the country and globe will converge in Washington D.C. for the 13th annual Content Marketing World.
Thirteen years! Just think about how much has changed in that time – not just in marketing, but in the world at large.
Keeping pace and making sense of all this change is a great reason for professionals to come together each autumn for CMWorld, absorbing the wisdom of expert speakers and connecting personally with fellow practitioners.
A look at the agenda for Content Marketing World 2023 illustrates a clear focus on timely topics and key challenges of the moment. Speakers will dive into top-of-mind items like the role of generative AI, the importance of humanizing content, and the nuances of marketing in tough economic conditions.
Read on for a rundown of 10 sessions taking place at CMWorld that are well worth checking out. (In addition, of course, to Lee Odden’s can’t-miss session at 1:45PM on Wednesday the 27th, where he’ll unpack the fundamentals of marketing with search intent.)
Don’t Miss These Speakers and Sessions at CMWorld 2023
Who:Beverly Jackson (Vice President of Brand and Product Marketing, Zillow)
When: Wednesday, September 27 | 9:05 am – 9:30 am
Where: CMWorld Keynote Stage
Why: Beverly is a reputed veteran marketing executive with a diverse track record that includes leadership roles at Yahoo!, MGM Resorts, Twitter, and now Zillow. Her perspectives are invaluable.
Who:Ann Handley (Chief Content Officer, MarketingProfs) and Andrew Davis (Keynote Speaker &, Author)
When: Wednesday, September 27 | 9:30 am – 10:00 am
Where: CMWorld Keynote Stage
Why: If you’ve ever seen Ann or Andrew on stage before, the answer should be obvious. They are both smart and beyond witty. Seeing the two of them combine forces with a theme that promises to offer a hilarious spin on AI prompting sounds like a pure delight. Andrew’s later session on Artificial Influence will also be worth going out of your way for.
Who:Emily Baker (AVP B2B Content Marketing, General Motors Financial), Brian Hale (Senior Comms Manager, General Motors Financial)
When: Wednesday, September 27 | 11:20 am – 12:00 pm
Where: Room 144
Why: One of the great things about going to CMWorld is being around so many like-minded professionals – people who work in similar roles and experience the same challenges, triumphs … and annoyances. This session theme perfectly captures that element of relatability and resonance; the contents will surely do the same.
Who:Chloe Thompson (Head of Global Content Strategy & Thought Leadership, Reward Gateway)
When: Wednesday, September 27 | 1:45 pm – 2:25 pm
Where: Room 143
Why: I’m particularly interested in hearing people’s experiences leading and scaling content strategy at a global level. Chloe has done so with excellent results at Reward Gateway, and will share helpful tips around mapping to business value, testing and learning, and adopting a customer-centric lens.
Why: The impact of thought leadership in B2B marketing is well established and undeniable. Same with original and insightful research. As such, it’ll be fascinating to hear Stephanie and Dusty walk the crowd through their strategy at Autodesk that involved transitioning from outsourced research reports to launching an in-house original research publishing function.
Who:Dr. Marcus Collins (Clinical Assistant Marketing Professor, Ross School of Business, University of Michigan)
When: Thursday, September 28 | 9:25 am – 10:05 am
Where: Room 147B
Why: Author of the renowned new book For the Culture, Dr. Collins is a foremost authority on branding, and specifically the dynamic influences of culture on marketing. You can watch the interview with ABC News below to catch a glimpse of his eloquence and expertise.
Who:Jenn VandeZande (Head of Digital Engagement, SAP CX), Amber Naslund (Enterprise Sales Leader, Marketing Solutions, LinkedIn)
When: Thursday, September 28 | 10:15 am – 10:55 am
Where: Room 152B
Why: Leaders from powerhouse brands speaking on the growing importance of authentic human storytelling, as emerging technologies disrupt content marketing to the core. This is a vital topic in the industry.
Who:David Fortino (Chief Strategy Officer, NetLine), Arianna Etemadieh (Demand Generation Marketing Lead, US & Canada, Uber for Business)
When: Wednesday, September 27 | 1:05 pm – 1:35 pm
Where: Room 146B
Why: It’s more important than ever for B2B marketers to successfully engage in-market prospects using their content, and Uber for Business’s Arianna Etemadieh and NetLine’s David Fortino will shine a light on getting strategic and translating your content into B2B outcomes.
Why: If you’re looking to bring unconventional creativity and storytelling to your B2B strategy, you can’t miss the headline keynote speaker at this year’s CMWorld. Elizabeth has been involved with some amazingly imaginative Hollywood productions and most recently directed the theatrical absurdity that was Cocaine Bear.
Who:Megan Gilbert (Vice President, FORTUNE Brand Studio, Fortune Media), Lauren Chomiuk (Director of Program Management, FORTUNE Brand Studio, Fortune Media)
When: Thursday, September 28 | 1:55 pm – 2:35 pm
Where: Room 152B
Why: Building on the distinct trend of authentic and emotional storytelling, Megan and Lauren will share inside stories of how their award-winning team at FBS helped showcase human impact through visionary and ambitious campaigns.
Who:Carmen Collins (Head of Social Marketing, Intuit QuickBooks)
When: Thursday, September 28 | 2:45 pm – 3:25 pm
Where: Room 146B
Why: “Empathy is like confetti, we throw the word around without understanding what it really is.” Carmen promises to get specific in this exploration of the single most powerful tool for B2B content marketing strategies.
